tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post2632075556709835862..comments2016-06-16T12:09:41.066-07:00Comments on The Crowded Bookshelf: Larry Niven's Ringworld: A Sexist Sci-Fi "Classic"Melissa Berryhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14398763489162344585noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-62691857643809065492016-06-16T12:09:41.066-07:002016-06-16T12:09:41.066-07:00Ditto all of you, old post, but still valid. I jus...Ditto all of you, old post, but still valid. I just got to the Prill part of the audiobook and had to hit pause to Google "How sexist is Ringworld?!" This review was my first result. Thanks for letting me know it's not just me. I'm not really sure what to even call it. Misogynistic? Anti-feminist? I heard an interview with Elon Musk who mentioned Ringworld as a sci-fi book that was influential to his ambition. I hope he meant the thought problem of far-out technology and consequences, not the bad writing and offensive view of women.Beachtonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13792937145012547220noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-23109440377473148282016-05-06T06:41:58.111-07:002016-05-06T06:41:58.111-07:00I know this post is ages old, but it seems everybo...I know this post is ages old, but it seems everybody can experience Niven's sexism in his or her own time. The moment you quoted was the exact moment that I stopped reading this book. siranahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02015673913700066068noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-22693640032426116662016-04-06T17:34:44.187-07:002016-04-06T17:34:44.187-07:00I tried reading it myself and I agree, that line a...I tried reading it myself and I agree, that line about "raping Nessus" (who I thought was the most interesting character in the book) raised my eyebrows. Plus who wants to explore the universe in a ship called "Lying Bastard"? Can you imagine if they used that name instead of 'Apollo 11' for the moon landing. I also can't get past the technological mumbo-jumbo Niven flips out over. Keep It Simple Stupid (K.I.S.S.). He should've spent more time on character development. This book could never be filmed today, what with Hollywood's irritating habit of casting much older men with much younger women. Teela Brown is no Juliana Frink.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-13380285846155211072015-11-03T05:12:57.509-08:002015-11-03T05:12:57.509-08:00Foregoing comments are exactly what I was thinking...Foregoing comments are exactly what I was thinking. Just met Prill and it's a struggle. Agreed that hackles went up from the very beginning. I imagine Niven narrating this story in the Playboy penthouse to workshop it. Listening the omniscient 3rd P narrator and Wu is like hanging with a couple pervy uncle jerks who overestimate themselves. I appreciate the "hard science" stuff but the action and nominal character development is just as flat.<br /><br />My personal peeve is the (to this point) serious treatment of the idea that luck is predictable, logically consistent, and scientifically knowable. Sorry to be redundant. Is this later to be deconstructed, revealed as folly? In either case, I don't predict an interesting resolution. Ive seen that alluded to as Ive looked around to see what others observed about the misogyny issue. <br /><br />Thought provoking speculative technologies and societies are the only thing getting me through it. Too bad.Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07194063226527690019noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-83668941738305319072015-09-01T01:26:57.667-07:002015-09-01T01:26:57.667-07:00I was pleased when I saw this available as an audi...I was pleased when I saw this available as an audiobook from my library as I like a bit of classic SF but an hour or so in and I am already pissed off...So thought I'd see if the sexism gets worse, looks like it does... I started off wanting to give the guy a break because he's from the old unenlightened days but - nah. Deleted. Thanks for the review.Kapostrophehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07380279046175816582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-39582033785597757132015-03-11T08:18:14.082-07:002015-03-11T08:18:14.082-07:00You didn't even make it to the part where they...You didn't even make it to the part where they finally came upon survivors from another "civilized" group, and the only women with them were all prostitutes and of course, the only one we get to meet immediately falls in love and seduces Louis. Also, she's described as no very intelligent and even though she's thousands of years old, the only things she's learned is how to have better sex.<br /><br />Swift kick in the balls is the least of what this guy deserves. <br /><br />It was a fun book and I want to forgive Niven, but the more I think about it, I can't. This is sex-based hatred on a much deeper level than typical of the early 70's. I can't think of a time in history when making every single woman a brainless whore is acceptable. Even my sexist puritan ancestors would have been offended.barefeethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03083901950476044682noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-82668094020281644632014-12-02T17:12:29.332-08:002014-12-02T17:12:29.332-08:00Hi Paul,
It surprised me when I read the book th...Hi Paul, <br /><br />It surprised me when I read the book that there were hardly any hits when I googled the exact same thing. It's part of the reason I wrote the blog post in the first place, so I'm glad it came up when you went looking for it. <br /><br />I really tried to give Niven a chance but when we learn that the female Puppeteers are also nonsentient and that Teela is just a blob of luck, it became clear that the book had a particularly biased view of women. Although I haven't written a post in years, I've been working my way through the science fiction and fantasy classics, and found this to be one of the biggest disappointments. I'd be interested in recommendations, if you have any. <br /><br />(I was tempted to write a post about The Hobbit last year when I reread it and found it to be nowhere near as good as I'd thought it was in high school. Perhaps one of these days I'll get around to cataloging my grievances against it in a post.) Melissa Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01570601205567023999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-2127056680853751202014-12-02T10:29:17.418-08:002014-12-02T10:29:17.418-08:00I just got finished with the book and for what it ...I just got finished with the book and for what it was, I enjoyed it (I'm an old school scifi fan), but the second time I read that the females of another race were non-sentient, I got a cold shiver. Women were for sex, described as not very bright, and in Teela's case described as not even having free will because her luck was making the choices. Now women can't even think at all? I give it a little bit of a pass because it was 1970. Women were still seen as good for nothing but laundry and babies by much of America. But the evidence suggests Niven thought that was still too powerful, so he needed to cut them down to size.<br /><br />I know this blog is a couple of years old, but I found it as the first hit for "Larry Niven Sexist". Since it's such a revered classic, I wanted to see if it was only me that noticed this issue.Paulhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12577033816797884342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-48965524411263513692014-01-06T07:34:25.407-08:002014-01-06T07:34:25.407-08:00Niven isn't a good story-teller. He's an i...Niven isn't a good story-teller. He's an idea-man. I think that's long been considered the case. Look at the concept behind the word and it's brilliant but the characters and the actual prose- not very good.<br /><br />All of the blatant sexism w/r/t Teela aside I gave him the benefit of the doubt about the aliens and assumed that "male" and "female" were nonsensical placeholder words that didn't mean much due to alien physiology. Technically, Nessus was a "male" and the Hindmost of his species was actually the equivalent of a "female" whereas the child-bearer was more like a host, and their species was parasitic. But it is a little telltale that he chose not to say that.<br /><br />He was a product of his time and I hope that in the future Sci-Fi can recognise the mistakes he made and not duplicate them. AFAIK we've been pretty successful there. A part of me wants to say that disliking Niven for sexism is like disliking Shakespeare for anti-semitism. Niven's sexism is there but I don't think it's actual conscious misogyny that causes it, it's more unconsidered.<br /><br />I liked the inclusion of "tanj" in inappropriate places. IMHO it was a good reflection of how real life language over time- there're plenty of acronyms that people use nowadays that make no sense. (Ever heard someone say PIN number?)<br /><br />Domikkohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09780623159282587408noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-8321272059329017992013-04-21T13:49:11.621-07:002013-04-21T13:49:11.621-07:00i completely agree. this book really bothered me, ...i completely agree. this book really bothered me, and frankly, it is not well written. i am currently struggling through the second book, but i don't think i will finish it. Megan https://www.blogger.com/profile/17649374434392093001noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-76460456457044833592012-11-26T20:44:19.965-08:002012-11-26T20:44:19.965-08:00Spot on!
I gave it a C+.
It's filled with fi...Spot on!<br /><br />I gave it a C+.<br /><br />It's filled with filler and is unintentionally funny throughout. The sexism was evident right from the first chapter. He belittles and patronises his female lead, which does nothing but demonstrate his own self-absorbed nature and highlight flaws in his other characters.ionizedhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01880190794273807714noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-20430150571396668762012-06-12T23:46:42.484-07:002012-06-12T23:46:42.484-07:00Yes! And thanks :)Yes! And thanks :)Melissa Berryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14398763489162344585noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2540405929792580657.post-40748729507303780972012-06-12T10:24:55.963-07:002012-06-12T10:24:55.963-07:00So what you're saying is, stop trying to make ...So what you're saying is, stop trying to make "tanj" happen? Loved the review, Melissa.Michelle Brookshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10849510237161051087noreply@blogger.com